This letter is in response to recent events at our local YMCA, and the subsequent fear-mongering and misinformation campaign that is occurring thanks to a few folks who think someone else’s …
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This letter is in response to recent events at our local YMCA, and the subsequent fear-mongering and misinformation campaign that is occurring thanks to a few folks who think someone else’s sexual identity is any of their business. I get it that Ms. Jaman was put into a potentially uncomfortable situation at the YMCA. It could have ended there with an apology to the employee, who was thoroughly vetted before being hired, but with the help of her friend Ms. Sousa and others, the situation seems to be escalating, not resolving.
If we are to believe the eyewitness account of recent letter-writer Andrea Hegland, a group of innocent, unarmed, trans-phobic demonstrators were assaulted by a mob of ninja-clad perverts at City Hall, while the local police force turned a blind eye to the mayhem. When the “Proud Boys” and their local pals rolled through town last year to confront people on Sims Way, the police were also there, but hands-off as well. That is what they are supposed to do in these situations.
Lastly, for Ms. Jaman to use a sleazy miscreant like Tucker Carlson to further their cause is highly disappointing. A person’s sexual identity is as much of a choice as someone’s religion or political affiliation.
As a result of this escalation, we are also now on the radar of far-right conspiracy theorist Robert Zerfing, a Vancouver, Washington resident who is planning a demonstration here on Sept. 3. A little research on Mr. Zerfing uncovers a history of harassing activists while closely associating with “Proud Boys.”
Rather than continue to damage our community with their divisiveness, Ms. Sousa, Ms. Jaman, and friends need to give the self-righteous behavior a rest and perhaps help find some constructive solutions to the situation.
David Conklin
PORT TOWNSEND
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Justin Hale
"It could have ended there with an apology to the employee" So the person whose expectations of a secure and private shower room were offended they have to apologize to the person that violated that space?
"a sleazy miscreant like Tucker Carlson"..... So Carlson is against allowing men into the women's shower room and you are for it, and you call him the miscreant?
Wednesday, September 7, 2022 Report this
MargeS
Fox News your window to America. When you are wrong, as Julie Jaman was in attacking an employee who works for the YMCA, entitled by a law put in place in 2006, you don't claim to be helping women and children. Your just a bigot.
Wednesday, September 7, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
I didn’t get the story from Fox News. I’ve heard how it’s sooo bad and this Tucker Carlson is sooo bad. And yet, it’s usually the self righteous to call others so. When the argument is lost name calling begins. There’s not much difference in divisiveness as the writer is proposing. But I still agree with the separation of gender in private spaces to protect children. So does that make me a bigot? And I ask since Mr Conklin and Marge seem to know so!
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
MargeS
Are you a bigot? I don't really believe commenters that won't use their real names.
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
Well I certainly hope not. I’ve found it better to not use my real name than have it butchered and used as a micro aggression on a regular basis. Thanks for asking though.
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
Dcc
Tucker Carlson is a sleazy miscreant for countless reasons, this being just one. If you can get over your phobias and biases, Justin, you might realize that the employee was not "violating" anything. They were vetted as a person by the Y, and I feel sorry that you are so obsessed with people's genitals. There are no statistics that show trans people being more likely to be predators than straight people. I know that this is out of your comfort zone. If this had happened in Europe, nobody would have batted an eye, because in the large scheme of life, it is actually not an issue unless you make it one.
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
Thomas Camfield
"It is actually not an issue unless you make it one." Sounds like a good place to start. Why does Port Townsend need "Proud Boys" or other out-of-towners?
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
Because it’s so inclusive and welcoming!
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
"you don't claim to be helping women and children." ..... so the person who argues for a woman's right to privacy in the women's shower in your mind is a bigot, but the obvious male that watches young and old females in the woman's shower is OK with you? Go sell crazy somewhere else Marge.
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
Codex; Likewise I do not use my legal name, and likewise Marge seems to have a problem with that, good! She and her ilk are the last people on Earth I want doxing me.
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
"Tucker Carlson is a sleazy miscreant for countless reasons, this being just one." So Dcc disagrees with Carlson's point of view therefore Carlson is a miscreant.... well I disagree with Dcc's POV therefore Dcc is a miscreant.
" the employee was not "violating" anything." BS, the employee was violating the women's sense of privacy in the Women's shower room. Come on Dcc, an eighteen-year-old male in the women's shower and you're ok with that? Oh,Oh,,, he says he "identifies" as a woman....Bull ****!
I feel sorry that you cannot differentiate between a female and a male.
Thursday, September 8, 2022 Report this
AndreaH
With a little effort to do some actual research before spouting off, perhaps David will take the time to watch video of the LetJulieSwim press release, which is what I did:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5_6fUjDd4bk&feature=youtu.be
One would have to be delusional to watch this and then say there was no aggression towards the, mostly women, attempting to hold their press release.
Mr Conklin says I attended the event: I did not.
At a minimum, do your research and get your facts straight. It is important.
Andrea Hegland
Friday, September 9, 2022 Report this
banjowilly
Andrea (if this is indeed Andrea Hegland) - your prior letter was certainly misleading then when you said “ I watched with horror the assault on the LetJulieSwim supporters at Pope Marine Park on Monday afternoon, evidently by supporters of transgender people.” In your letter you never reference that you were not personally in attendance at the carefully staged and filmed livestream event. I also don’t take video from events like these as “facts,” since many purveyors of hate and division are known to create situations with their own actors to further false narratives. I wonder if many who often fill in comments here like Justin Hale even live in the community, or if they are Proud Boys from other areas purporting to be what they are not. People find it upsetting when a trans person just doing their job becomes maligned through events like these. I don’t condone violence of any sort, but people are free to be loud to express their discontent.
Friday, September 9, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
The absence of moderate voices on this issue continues to astonish me. If we put aside the possibility that the entire community has lost the capacity for rational thought and nuanced debate, then the silence must be attributed to either fear or indifference. I don't know who reads the editorials in the Leader or the comments below them, but please feel free to chime in and back me up.
I agree with Mr. Conklin that Ms. Jaman should have apologized -- first, directly to the YMCA employee, and again during her public comment at City Hall. Instead, she has chosen to dig in her heels and this only takes us further away from a potential resolution.
That said, it was also wrong and irresponsible for the city council, the elected leadership, to dismiss her out of hand and tar her as morally reprobate. There is nothing in the pedigree of Ms. Jaman to suggest that she is bigot. This judgment was hastily brought down without any sincere consideration of Ms. Jaman's concerns, or even a basic acknowledgement. Similarly, upholding the pool ban does nothing to move this issue forward.
Thus pigeonholed by local authorities, and without moderate voices speaking on her behalf, Ms. Jaman has been forced to ally herself with those who take a harder political line, such as Ms. Sousa, and even some whom many of us find generally reprehensible. But politics is not black and white, and I won't blame her for this circus. I rather blame the silent majority who have the power to call for reason and civility, and instead cower before the mobs or shirk responsibility.
Friday, September 9, 2022 Report this
Dcc
Your letter implied that you were at the gathering in person, Andrea. If there had been "actual aggression", as you claim, the police would have intervened. You and Ms. Jaman are not the victims in this scenario.
Saturday, September 10, 2022 Report this
deanna
I wonder if this was a typo, David:
"A person’s sexual identity is as much of a choice as someone’s religion or political affiliation. "
Absolutely not true; a person's gender identity has numerous physiological, hormonal, and genetic components. One out of a hundred babies has ambivalent genitalia at birth, so it is easy for the docs and families to "guess" wrong when choosing the gender for the birth certificate. In the past, "corrective" surgeries were automatically done at birth if the genitalia was ambivalent. The genes that control the reproductive hormones don't always match the external body of the person.
Gender and sexuality are incredibly complex aspects of a person's identity and physiology. The internal experience and the outward manifestations are not anyone else's business unless the person chooses to share their own truths.
Saturday, September 10, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
Dcc, I'd like to address your first comment if I may. You make the following assertion, which is 100% correct, and it's worth reiterating as much of the rhetoric coming from the pro-Jaman camp, especially among her extended "allegiances", can be perceived as hostile. In particular, there is a certain dignity being denied trans people when advocates for Ms. Jaman refer to men "pretending to be" or "dressing up as" women. Indeed, some also continue to labor under the misconception that there is a link between trans people and predatory behavior, and do not take the appropriate care when expressing themselves. You note:
>> There are no statistics that show trans people being more likely to be predators than straight people.
Again, the data is pretty clear on this and I have no argument with the facts, but I also think this statement brushes over a perfectly legitimate concern about the state law in question, which provides a loophole for predatory *cis, heterosexual* men to access the private spaces of women. I believe we should be allowed to discuss this point in a civil manner, without raising claims of bigotry or phobia.
Saturday, September 10, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
Deanna,
Thank you for drawing attention to the author's erroneous statement about sexual identity as a choice. I'm not sure if it was typo or a platitude-gone-wrong, but either way, I'm surprised that it made it to press, seeing as how it's the same argument that has been used by religious conservatives for generations to torture homosexuals. Your exposition on the nature of gender identity is very eloquently expressed and captures its multifarious components, only one of which could be said to relate to free will.
However, you conclude with a very radical assertion, that the "internal experience and the outward manifestations are not anyone else's business unless [a] person chooses to share their own truths." I am inclined to strongly disagree unless you can qualify this statement further. As a society, we acknowledge the existence of gender and understand that there are certain public realms where it ought to be declared. The obvious example is a shared bathroom or changing space. To deny the relevance of gender in these situations is tantamount to denying its existence. And a person's "own truths" are nonetheless bound by the tenets of society, or else society itself becomes equally meaningless.
Sunday, September 11, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
I propose adding a third shower/bathroom and mark it by a ?.
Sunday, September 11, 2022 Report this
Dcc
To clarify then, a person has the RIGHT to choose how they identify themselves, irregardless of what circumstances led to that decision.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
Is anyone confused yet? So is it a choice or not? I don’t foresee these problems going away anytime soon.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
"a person has the RIGHT to choose how they identify themselves".....I agree. If some dude wants to dress in a pink tutu and prance up and down Water street blowing kisses to everyone I couldn't care less, streets are public areas. But that dude has no right to go into the ladies' shower room and force his choice of identity onto women and children who expect a certain level of privacy and security in their shower rooms/ restrooms.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
Now that makes sense. Agreed.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
Dcc
Your comment assumes that all trans people would even behave in the way you are describing, which is a complete stereotype. Assuming that having male genitals while being around children makes them a predator is also pretty lame, and is personal opinion, not fact.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
Dcc, well duh!
I know that not all trans people want to wear pink tutus, I do know a couple of Trans people though and two of those like to wear women's dresses, and obviously, there is a guy at the YMCA pool who likes to wear women's bathing suits. In either case, I don't really care, not even IF they did want to wear pink tutus.
And I never suggested that trans people are predators. I said that a trans person who is a male in a women's shower room/bathroom is violating the women's privacy. There is a thing called voyeurism, which is a crime, but I guess we have to ignore that law as long as the guy claims to "identify" as a woman.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
Dcc, CodexSeraphinianus,
I think one has to select ones words carefully, particularly when speaking about the "right to choose" a gender identity. There are some in the trans debate who insist that gender is fluid. A logical consequence of this is that gender does not really exist. (If gender can change on a whim, what significance does it have in the first place?) The people who follow this line of thinking would therefore have no use for separate men's and women's bathrooms; they mean to deconstruct gender entirely.
It seems to me that we can allow for the rights and dignity of trans people, but in order to make sense of the locker room scenario in which we maintain some separation between the sexes, we must require that the gender of trans people is fixed (post-transition, naturally). I'm not sure that "choice" correctly captures the mechanisms of gender identity when it comes to the issue at hand, and, as I said above, it creates a false parallel with sexual preference and freedom of religion.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
Chetzemoco, agreed and thanks for some clarification. Justin is also correct. It doesn’t matter to most of what someone wants to wear or claim. The current precedence set locally is vague and while protecting some peoples rights it has the capability to be violated. The difference that I believe some of us see is that at some point these rights are going to come with consequences. The victims won’t be most of us when and if it happens. It will most likely be women and children that are the victims. There should be other alternatives looked at instead of sacrificing risk for feelings.
Monday, September 12, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
Thanks for your reply, CodexSeraphinianus. I think we're generally on the same page. Specifically, I believe that the law as it is currently being enforced is inadequate. What I was angling at before is that the notion of "live and let live" is too simplistic here, regardless of which side invokes it. It does nothing to resolve the problematic parts of the law, nor does it allow for the normalization of trans people, and as such, it does not move us toward any kind of resolution.
Tuesday, September 13, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
Spot on C. It’s refreshing to find some sort of balance despite any of the circumstances. Appreciate ya. Hope we can all strive for better.
Tuesday, September 13, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
Question is, does one's "right" to self-expression supersede others right to privacy? In a way what happened at the Jaman rally was a good example, and we have seen it before where a speaker is drowned out by opponents who believe the speaker has no right to speak.
"nor does it allow for the normalization of trans people" How do you make the abnormal normal?
Tuesday, September 13, 2022 Report this
Dcc
The "abnormal" is only that way way because of your personal opinion. That does not make it a fact. Almost everyone has a characteristic or behavior that someone else would consider "abnormal".
Tuesday, September 13, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
Mr. Hale, in the strictly statistical sense, the small percentage of the population who are trans will always deviate from the norm, but that doesn't mean they ought to be stigmatized. Perhaps that is the word I should have used. If you compare sexual orientation, gay, lesbian, and bisexual individuals -- between 5 and 10% -- are still dwarfed by the general population, but there has been dramatic a cultural shift in the past two decades, particularly among the younger generation, towards greater acceptance, which is to say, normalization. Natural redheads are less than 2%, but hair color variance is itself normalized, so no one bats an eye.
When you say "you couldn't care less" if someone runs around in a tutu, it comes off a mean-spirited given the context. My reading -- and I feel that I've been very generous to both sides, so please bear with me -- is that you are not particularly open to the idea of extending full, dignified personhood to those with trans gender identity. In other words: they're free to be crazy, but keep them out of my bathroom and away from my kids. (Clearly, you didn't say the latter, but that's the tone you're setting.)
Regarding shout-downs, I find them abhorrent and childish, so I have no argument with you there. While I'm no expert on constitutional law, it's clear that there is plenty of gray area around free speech (e.g., incitement, slander, hate speech), along with structures that make it possible for a public rally to devolve into an uncivil shouting match. In this way, I don't think it is a good analogy for an absolutist stance on free expression versus privacy.
Tuesday, September 13, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
Dcc, What are the normal sexes for **** sapiens? Male&Female, XY and XX chromosomes. I understand that abnormalities do occur in our species, hence the term "abnormal".
"Almost everyone has a characteristic or behavior that someone else would consider "abnormal"...... BS. Speak for yourself.
Tuesday, September 13, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
"the small percentage of the population who are trans will always deviate from the norm, but that doesn't mean they ought to be stigmatized." I agree, but neither does that entitle them to special rights to be in areas designated for women.
"Natural redheads are less than 2%, but hair color variance is itself normalized" So if a person with red hair dyes their hair purple they are no longer redheads? If a person with brown eyes identifies as a blue-eyed person???
" you are not particularly open to the idea of extending full, dignified personhood to those with transgender identity." ..... If that means any dude who says he identifies as a woman should be allowed into the shower with my teenage Daughters then hell no.
I do not consider trans people "crazy". Abnormal, Deviant? yes!
Tuesday, September 13, 2022 Report this
jl
"where a speaker is drowned out by opponents who believe the speaker has no right to speak" misses the point. They had a right to speak, and did speak. There is, however no "right to be heard".
Wednesday, September 14, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
JL, you're correct: it's not a right. However, civil structures are meant to guide the exercise of free speech, such that the speaker can be heard and refuted, if necessary. PT lowers the standards of civic engagement by participating in the kind of shout-down that was seen at the Jaman rally. If you disagree with your opponent, refute them! What good comes of drowning them out?
Thursday, September 15, 2022 Report this
Justin Hale
"where a speaker is drowned out by opponents who believe the speaker has no right to speak" misses the point. They had a right to speak, and did speak. There is, however no "right to be heard".
That kind of thinking is what leads to out-of-control shouting matches, no ideas are shared, no communication, no coming together just more division. And what about the people who came to listen, they don't have to right to hear the message without some a-whole with a bullhorn blasting out obscenities like the morons at Biden's speech in Philly the other day. Is that the kind of world you want to live in ?
Thursday, September 15, 2022 Report this
CodexSeraphinianus
Most divisive I have ever seen! No wonder we can’t come together!
Thursday, September 15, 2022 Report this
chetzemoco
We *can* come together if we listen to each other and make space for the silent majority.
Julie Jaman may be wrong -- indeed, time may prove her so -- but it was the basic *responsibility* of city government to hear her grievance and respectfully respond. Instead, they were decisive in their neglect for her concerns. She has lived in the community for longer than the mayor has been on the planet, and is part of the generation that brought PT back to life. On this basis alone, she deserves deference and consideration.
In the meantime, people like Tucker Carlson are all too happy to watch the left eat itself and will gladly provide a platform to encourage it.
Tuesday, September 20, 2022 Report this